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<title><![CDATA[TFS Market Neutral]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/forumview?bn=40160</link>
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<lastBuildDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:43:26 GMT</lastBuildDate>
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<title>Yahoo! Message Boards</title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/forumview?bn=40160</link>
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<title><![CDATA[Re: Fees]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=24&amp;mid=28&amp;tof=1&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[One look at the Fund's 5 year performance vs the S&P 500, and you'll see they've earned their fee.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:43:26 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[jamesherrell]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: TFSMX Doing Well in Ugly Market]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=22&amp;mid=27&amp;tof=2&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[I'm very skeptical.   I can't find a single fund that did well thru the past crash or held its value. If they can't hold up in a deflationary crash by shorting stocks, then what's the point of any hedge fund?

MIN came closest to a good deflation pick.   I'd be glad to hear about others.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:37:45 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[chrisrzell]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: TFSMX Doing Well in Ugly Market]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=22&amp;mid=26&amp;tof=3&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[If you like this kind of fund, look at DIAMX or its institutional sister, DHLSX.   DHLSX says it has a 500K minimum, but many fund supermarkets have access to it at lower amounts.   Both have much lower fees than TFSMX, but comparable performance over the longer term.   DIAMX is a load fund, so try to go with DHLSX]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:31:30 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[bacon259]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: TFSMX Doing Well in Ugly Market]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=22&amp;mid=25&amp;tof=4&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[I am interested in the market-neutral portfolio and started my own computer generated portfolio. Was introduced last weekend. This week, it was up 8.4% while S&P 500 was dwon 1.9%. You can find this weekend's list on Sunday at 
<a href=http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Winning_Portfolios/>http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Winning_Portfolios/</a>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:07:37 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[tnmc77]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Fees]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=24&amp;mid=24&amp;tof=5&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[These guys could accumulate a lot of money, including money that otherwise goes to hedge funds, if they would reduce the 2.48% management fee to something reasonable.   Compare to CGMFX at 1.27% or FAIRX at 1.0% plus risk adjusted returns.   Makes you wonder whether returns for the investors are a primary concern of the owners and PM.   I'll wait.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:43:26 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[bacon259]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[Re: know what you own]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=18&amp;mid=23&amp;tof=6&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Look how quickly the fund adjusted after the "blow up". The model works quite well.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:12:56 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[MuradB]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[TFSMX Doing Well in Ugly Market]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=22&amp;mid=22&amp;tof=7&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Am impressed with TFSMX's performance: Up 6.7% YTD, 11.5% last year and 24% in 2006. It was basically flat today while the market sold off big time. -Dow was down 360. Seems to be a true long/short market neutral fund -for the long haul. Hate TFSMX's expenses of almost 2.5%, but shorting is expensive for mutual funds. Surprised this fund has not received more attention. Makes me interested in owning. Any other opinions?]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:37:45 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[kbelboe]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[Re: Another failure of the Long-Short/Market Neutral Funds]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=12&amp;mid=21&amp;tof=8&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[So why did you sell at the very bottom?]]></description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:14:37 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[mikestacey99]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[VISITOR FROM THE HUSSMAN FUND]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=20&amp;mid=20&amp;tof=9&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[The last few days over at HSGFX have been brutal.   For those of you who don't know, Hussman uses a Long/Short strategy as well.
   I just wanted to say "Hi" and to invite all of you over to the HSGFX board-I think you'd find similar views and concerns.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 21:01:26 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[wallworry]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: know what you own]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=18&amp;mid=19&amp;tof=10&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Bridgemaster:   A very good point: know what you own.   I will readily admit that I did not have enough knowledge of the workings of this fund before investing in it.   That said, one would have to admit that before this blowup it had about the smoothest rising price stream that one could find.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:12:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[Waylock]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[know what you own]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=18&amp;mid=18&amp;tof=11&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[I think that you should know what you own (risks included).
TFSMX is no a Long-Short Fund in the sense that they are long a basket of stocks and short others.

They are a "Black Box" or "Quant" (quantitative trading)
outfit that relies on computer models and certain assumptions.

Over the past few weeks it has become apparent that many of these Black Box funds were pursuing the same strategies and had similar portfolios.

When a few of the Hedge funds that blew up due to the subprime blowup faced huge redemptions they had to unwind there positions causing a “short Squeeze” in TFSMX short positions.

Combined with the markets decline witch caused the long positions to (naturally) decline TFSMX blew up.

I suppose over the next few weeks the short positions will decline somewhat and a recovery of about 50% of recent losses would be my best guess (unless more hedge fund blowups occur causing another round of forced buying).

Good luck to all.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:12:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[bridgemaster65]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Friday - Finally Some Relief]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=16&amp;mid=17&amp;tof=12&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Waylock:

You are correct.   Something doesn't make sense.   I invested in this fund to get decent returns with less risk than the overall market.   For this fund to lose over 10% in less than 2 weeks shouldn't happen given the fund's strategy and positions.   In my opinion, it has failed at its essential purpose.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 02:11:14 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[donotspamcraig]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Friday - Finally Some Relief]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=16&amp;mid=16&amp;tof=13&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Friday

ALHIX    + 6.05%
JAMNX      + 4.92%
SWHEX       + 4.72%
TFSMX      + 3.52%

It's nice that some $$ was made back today,   but the situation remains the same, in my opinion.   The model is out of whack.   IF the model was working properly TFSMX should have no more made 3.52% today (Friday) than it lost 4.84% yesterday (Thursday).   There remains a tremendous amount of uncertainly about TFSMX and the other long-short/market neutral funds, in my opinion.

Happy Trading !]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 02:11:13 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[Waylock]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Another failure of the Long-Short/Market Neutral Funds]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=12&amp;mid=15&amp;tof=14&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[I sold today.   That's probably good news for TFSMX shareholders, since it will probably re-trace its steps. 

Its almost a guarantee.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:14:36 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Another failure of the Long-Short/Market Neutral Funds]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=12&amp;mid=14&amp;tof=15&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[This is a disaster. Even HSGFX was down today!]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:35:33 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[moominoid]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Another failure of the Long-Short/Market Neutral Funds]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=12&amp;mid=13&amp;tof=16&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Big liquidation triggers hedge-fund turmoil
Disruption reminiscent of LTCM collapse as market-neutral funds hit hard
By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
Last Update: 3:54 PM ET Aug 9, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The liquidation of a big hedge fund or investment-bank trading portfolio is wreaking havoc in some parts of the hedge-fund business, according to managers and investors.
Black Mesa Capital, a hedge-fund firm that uses computer models to track down investment ideas, said that at least one large hedge fund or investment bank is liquidating "massive" trading portfolios, according to a letter the Santa Fe, N.M.-based firm sent to investors Wednesday. 
'Clearly, something is amiss in the markets that few in our strategy, if anyone, have experienced before.'
— Letter to Black Mesa investors 
The warning is causing disruptions and triggering big losses among other so-called market-neutral hedge funds, Black Mesa said in its letter, a copy of which was obtained Thursday by MarketWatch. 
"Clearly, something is amiss in the markets that few in our strategy, if anyone, have experienced before," Black Mesa's managers, Dave DeMers and Jonathan Spring, wrote. DeMers declined to comment Thursday. 
The firm's hedge fund, which has about $1.9 billion in long positions and $1.9 billion in short positions, was down roughly 7.5% this month through Aug. 7. Those losses could grow to as much as 10% for August so far, Black Mesa noted. 
A hedge fund run by Goldman Sachs (GS : Goldman Sachs Group, Inc
News , chart , profile , more
Last: 182.25-11.05-5.72%

6:19pm 08/09/2007

Delayed quote dataAdd to portfolio
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Financials 
Sponsored by:
GS182.25, -11.05, -5.7%) , the North American Equity Opportunities fund, has sold some of its positions recently, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday. Goldman's biggest hedge fund, the Global Alpha fund, has suffered losses and may also be selling positions, according to other published reports this week. A Goldman spokesman declined to comment Thursday. 
'Quant' quake
The Global Alpha fund, which manages almost $10 billion, is a so-called quantitative fund, using computer models to locate investment opportunities. 
Such "quant" funds are popular among hedge-fund investors. Many use a market-neutral strategy, which aims to balance long positions with short trades, or bets against securities. Others are so-called statistical arbitrage funds, which analyze the historical relationships between related securities and trade when those relationships get out of whack. 
Many players in this part of the hedge-fund business have similar positions and use lots of leverage, or borrowed money, to increase their bets. However, that magnifies even small losses. Some of these hedge funds also have relatively permissive redemption periods, allowing investors to take their money out every month, with 30 days' notice or less. 
So if losses trigger investor redemptions, these funds may have to sell lots of their positions. That, in turn, puts more pressure on the historical relationship between related securities, handing more losses to other hedge funds in the space. 
If such positions are sold by lots of managers at the same time, the most leveraged funds get hit the hardest, possibly forcing big liquidations of portfolios, which triggers a chain reaction.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:06:00 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Another failure of the Long-Short/Market Neutral Funds]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=12&amp;mid=12&amp;tof=17&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Thursday

TFSMX    - 4.84%
ALHIX      - 4.62%
SWHEX         - 4.51%
JAMNX         - 3.35%]]></description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:14:36 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[Waylock]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: There Is A Pattern Today]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=10&amp;mid=11&amp;tof=18&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[HSGFX too. Hussman commented on his homepage:

<a href=http://www.hussmanfunds.com/>http://www.hussmanfunds.com/</a>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:21:32 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[moominoid]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[There Is A Pattern Today]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=10&amp;mid=10&amp;tof=19&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Market Neutral or Long-Short Funds took it on the chin today.

ALHIX    - 5.28%
JAMNX    - 4.70%
TFSMX    - 2.82%
SWHEX    - 2.55%]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:21:31 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[Waylock]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=9&amp;tof=20&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[They don't do market timing. It's supposed to be a long-short fund with roughly a 0.3 beta. I don't know what suddenly happened. It was great till the last few days.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:44:19 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[moominoid]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=8&amp;tof=21&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[Funny thing is why didn't these long-short funds rise when the market tanked last two weeks? I can understand them losing now when the market is going higher (due to going short, I guess) but shouldn't they have have risen much higher when the market tanked? I'm losing faith in these fancy mutual funds. I'd rather go with index mutual funds where I know what my return will be. If you want to go a little more aggressive, then you can go with the leveraged index funds such as Direxion fund family.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:16:46 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[next_milenium@sbcglobal.net]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=7&amp;tof=22&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[ALHIX is another long-short, and its down over 5% tonight alone....I think a lot of these long-short funds got caught holding the bag this week.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:16:46 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=6&amp;tof=23&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[TFSMX uses a quantitative approach to investing.   Late today on CNBC David Faber was talking about the quant folk having a rough time right now.   Apparently that approach is not working in this market.   Perhaps the direction of the NAV of TFSMX this week is evidence of it.   Prior to this recent time the maximum drawdown had been 5.57% on May 13, 2005.   Now it is down about 9.6% from its high.   Not a good showing for the home team.   In April they wrote a letter to the board at Phoenix Market Neutral fund,   criticizing then for their performance.   Perhaps they were a little quick with that.

<a href=http://tinyurl.com/3bt5xm>http://tinyurl.com/3bt5xm</a>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:56:43 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[luvpugetsound]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=5&amp;tof=24&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[This is a market neutral fund. My guess would be that they went heavily short believing the market is going lower. Well, instead of market going lower, it is heading higher. TFSMX timing must be off. I'm not all that impressed by this fund, although it held well last two weeks when the market was tanking. I'm going to hold for another 6 month or so and see if this fund can beat the general market. If it doesn't, I'm unloading this POS.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:44:19 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[next_milenium@sbcglobal.net]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=4&amp;tof=25&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[I suspect they took a bearish stance this week (maybe buying large amounts of index puts), and its burning them.

Today was terrible.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:59:52 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=3&amp;tof=26&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[This is odd. They are very diversified so any single stock should have limited effects.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:56:46 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[moominoid]]></author>
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<title><![CDATA[Re: Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=2&amp;tof=27&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[This is odd. They are very diversified so any single stock should have limited effects.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="false"><![CDATA[thread-40160-1]]></guid>
<ymb:replies><![CDATA[0]]></ymb:replies>
<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:56:34 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[moominoid]]></author>
</item><item>
<title><![CDATA[Drop of 3.5% in two days.]]></title>
<link>http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Mutual_Funds_%28A_to_Z%29/Mutual_Funds_T/threadview?m=tm&amp;bn=40160&amp;tid=1&amp;mid=1&amp;tof=28&amp;off=1</link>
<description><![CDATA[TFSMX lost 3.5% in two days when the market was about 2% higher. Any clue?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="false"><![CDATA[thread-40160-1]]></guid>
<ymb:replies><![CDATA[8]]></ymb:replies>
<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:44:19 GMT</pubDate>
<author><![CDATA[gianngiov]]></author>
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